B 1787 Census: DK, Holbaek, Amt II, Agerup parish (sogn), Eriksholm FHL 39,029 (Person not actually listed in census.).
B 1787 Census: DK, Holbaek, Amt II, Agerup parish (sogn), Eriksholm FHL 39,029 (Person not actually listed in census.).
B FHL 44,524 parish records Skt. Petri (German) sogn. See marriage reference for profession.
M FHL 6,060,372:43 of 67.
Chr Same.
Confirmed in Torblase 1831.
B Looks like Gronbjerg or Hvarbjerg.
C FHL 6,060,372:43 of 67. Also gives vaccination date as probably 16 Nov
1834. Confirmed in 1825 in Slagelse Skt. Peters (possibly in Jan?).
M Same.
Ord See parents' notes.
B FHL 44,524 parish records Skt. Petri (German) sogn. See marriage reference for profession.
M FHL 6,060,372:43 of 67.
Chr Same.
Confirmed in Torblase 1831.
B In the marriage of the the man she had child with (HLR) is her info.
M Not actually married to Heinrich Ludwig ROEDEL. Listed as a widow in her
info.
B FHL 44,524 parish records Skt. Petri (German) sogn.
Chr Same.
B IGI. This is not 100% sure, but probably correct.
M IGI. Birth of child is under batch number C201066; 0607.
B Correspondence with Evangelisches Zentralarchiv in Berlin, Kirchenbuchstelle, Jebensstrasse 3, 10623 Berlin, Germany, phone 49-30-3-10-10-0, dated 25 Jun 1996. Date calculated from somewhere as 1785. Date given by parish records in Spandau is 18 Jan 1787, which is extremely close, so it is assumed this is correct. Same record (index), FHL 1,271,060 (right side), p. 549 and (actual record) 1,270,688 (left side), p. 422.
Chr Same.
M First marriage found on FHL 48,185, p. 414 Frederiksberg, Kobenhavn, DK parish records. Second marriage on FHL 44,536, p. 38 Skt. Petri tyske (German) sogn. This was also on the IGI as Trinitatis sogn 8 Nov 1816 M201071; 5459.
D His wife listed as "enke," widow, as a witness (this is the most likely scenario of all) in her son's illegitimate child chr. on 2 Nov 1849. Look for any info possible! This guy who kept records kept the most detailed ones I've seen for church records. Find his death; it may even list his parents, his birth, etc.OCCUPATION: Listed apparently as "Kunstdrechsler".
NOTES/LOG:
-- NOTE: Perhaps the guy in Skt. Petri is his uncle.
-- His birth could have been in these parishes:
a) Skt. Nikolai Tauf 1606, Trau 1579 (holes 1603-1624), Sterbe 1606.
b) Skt. Johannis Tauf 1670-1897 (holes 1769-1800), Trau 1674-1897, Sterbe 1689-
1897.
c) Zuchthausgemeinde Tauf 1724, Trau 1729, Sterbe 1724.
d) Militaer-Gemeinde Spandau Taufbuch 1760, Sterbe, Traubuch 1755.
e) Beriln Staaken (Dorf) (possibly/probably wrong) all 1640
f) Marwitz (same) all 1673
f1) Eichstaedt also, all 1681 (under heading of f, Marwitz)
g) Belten (same) all 1674 (holes 1803-1812)
These last 3 (4) are in Spandau "Kreis," district, but I am guessing they are
not in Spandau proper. It is still possible Heinrich reported his birthplace
as Spandau, when actually he was born in Marwitz, so all could be checked. The
only problem we have is that there are holes in Skt. Johannis from 1769-1800,
just the wrong time, since we want 1787.
a) Found Heinrich Ludwig REDEL here.
b) Skt. Johannis, has holes in the proper time period! Perhaps do a check to
see if surnames of our family are in this parish also, esp. dead-ends.
c) Searched Zuchthausgemeinde births from 1774-1793, nix.
d) This is in Provo
e)-g) Another town altogether-- Check 1801 Copenhagen census index to see if he had family from Germany living with or near him.
-- Check Copenhagen probate index on 599139:1 and other probate indexes in Copenhagen, for other clues regarding him and his family -- SRE, 27 Jul 2002.
B FHL 44,536 parish records Skt. Petri (German) sogn.
M Same. No age listed in this marriage record (needs more careful reading, though). But look up the marriage in Trinitatis and they are more liable to have the age there.LOG/NOTES:
-- Original estimated birth date was 1785.
LOG/NOTES:
-- Not sure if the Anders Bolvig who died 29 Jan (bur. 3 Feb) 1790 in Laholm, Halland, Sweden, is this one. However, this person's name was defintely Anders Bolvig, was married to AMR, had the five children listed in this record, and is the person mentioned in his wife's will -- SRE, 27 Jul 2002.
-- Situation straightened out. He's the one -- SRE, 1 Aug 2002.
-- Therre was an entry for a child of a Widrich Boldevin having kids the same time as Anders. Could be a relative: brother, father? The entry is on FHL 134309, item?, p. 39, just after a 27 Oct 1754 entry. Get help reading. Also, could Anders's mother be Helene? His second wife's first child was Helene an could have been named after her. Their 2nd child was Anna Christina, possibly named after her mother and mother's possible mother, Christina -- SRE 3 Aug 2002.
-- Searched births and deaths from 1776-to 27 Jan 1778, found no more family members. Searching deaths from time Anders married Elina Brockman until around 1783 to find if there are other family members -- SRE, 26 Jul 2002.
-- A Boldevin woman died in 1758 (calculated birth year 1693), which would have been perfect for Anders' mother. Also, she doesn't seem to be connected to the other, (at the moment) probably unrelated Boldevin family in Laholm. Her name was Annica Boldevin. Check into this further -- SRE, 1 Aug 2002.
-- Birth date calculated from death age is 1726. Research of Anders Berg, Stockholm, Sweden, indicates that he was born at Ängelholm, Kristianstad, Sweden in 1729. Verify the move. There was an Annika Boldevin who died (possible mother) in 1758 and was born in 1793, so could have been mother. Check this to be certain, however -- SRE, 22 Aug 2002.
-- Recevied an e-mail from Anders Berg, as follows. Basically, he says he is not related to these people in his submission, but this Boldevin line was just incidental to his research. He said it was his best guess. Actually, looking at a map, this line doesn't seem too unlikely. Laholm, Hallands län is only about 18 miles (30 km) from Ängelholm, Kristianstads län (now Skånes län). Also, Anders Berg says that the name is extremely rare, so it could very likely be the person. In Laholm, the death ages have been exactly on every time I have looked up a birth from a calculated birth date from death age, even in old people. It says Anders Boldevin died 74 years old, so he would have been born in 1726, whereas the Ängelholm person is 1729, but is still very possible. Records should be searched further and a connection should be made between the two. There are no husförhörslängder or in/utflyttede to help during this time period either, so it's census (i.e., tax records), wills, or some other source that would help. Already checked wills and briefly one or two censuses in Ängelholm. Dig deeper. Here is my e-mail with Anders' reply, and appended by a separate document from Anders Berg on the genealogy of the Anders Bollvig from Ängelholm:----- Ursprungligt meddelande -----
Från: "Shon R Edwards" <sre-genealogy@juno.com>
Till: <anderzb@algonet.se>
Kopia: <bruce.robinson@xtra.co.nz>; <franknz@home.se>
Skickat: den 19 augusti 2002 08:19
Ämne: Genealogi> Anders,
>
> Jeg hetter Shon Edwards og bor i Amerika. Jeg har funnet ditt navn i
> DISBYT og ser at du er en slektning av meg (du må unnskylde meg, at jeg
> skriver på norsk -- jeg snakker litt dansk og norsk, men ikke ennå
> svenska!). Jeg nedstammer fra Anders Bollvig/Boldevin, som var giftet
> med Anna Margareta Reuterberg. Deres datter, Helene, gik til Danmark og
> giftet seg med en tysker. De hadde en datter, Emilie, som hadde en søn,
> som gik til New Zealand, Gunder Gundersen. Gunders datterdatter, Alice
> Franklin (min fars farmor) kom til Amerika.
>
> Jeg vil gjerne vite hva du vet om Anders Bolvig/Boldevin. Jeg visste,
> han giftet seg med Anna Margareta Reuterberg i Laholm i 1779, men jar har
> ikke funnet sin fødested. Kunne du sige meg, hvordan du vet, at han kom
> fra Ängelholm? Også, vet du noe om sin hustru, AMR, f.eks. hvor hun kom
> fra?
>
> Det gleder meg å treffe noen fra Sverige, og jeg håper, vi kan hjelpe
> hverandre. Mange tak for hjelpen!
>
> Hilsen,
>
>
> Shon Edwards
> sre-genealogy@juno.com
>Hej Shon,
Jag hoppas att det går bra att jag svarar på svenska. Du frågar om Anders
Bollvig/Boldevin. Det är inte en släkting till mig, utan han har kommit med
i min databas av andra skäl, framför allt pga att jag forskat i en annan
släkt som heter Bolvig. Inget samband tycks finnas.Att Anders är född i Ängelholm är en gissning av mig. Namnet är så pass
ovanligt och avståndet mellan Ängelholm och Laholm är ganska kort, så det
förefaller inte osannolikt. Jag har dock inga bevis. Om Reuterberg vet jag
ingenting.Under förutsättning att identifieringen av Anders är riktig, så ser du
anorna i den bifogade filen.Hoppas det är till någon hjälp!
Bästa hälsningar,
Anders
Genealogy of Anders Bollvig from Ängelholm, provided by Anders Berg:1
Helena Bollvig. Flyttade från Laholm till Danmark (Shon Edwards). (Far 2, Mor 3)
Generation I
2 f
Andreas Bollvig (Boldevin). Sannolikt samma i Ängelholm och Laholm. Skräddare. Född 1729 3/4 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Döpt 1729 7/4 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Skräddarmästare mellan 1754 och 1790 i Laholm (avskrift kyrkobok [Christer Jonsson]). Flyttade som skräddare Anders Boldewin 1757 från Nr 45, Laholm till Nr 94, Laholm (mtl [Anneli Hagman]). Skräddare, utgammal 1790 i Nr 94, Laholm (mtl [Anneli Hagman]). Död av rödsot 64 år gl 1790 29/1 i Laholm (avskrift kyrkobok [Christer Jonsson]). (Barn 1, Far 4, Mor 5)
Gift 1:o 1754 10/2 i Laholm (avskrift kyrkobok [Christer Jonsson]) med Elna Brockman. Född 1733 (avskrift kyrkobok [Christer Jonsson]). Död av lungsot 45 år 1778 27/1 i Laholm (avskrift kyrkobok [Christer Jonsson]).
Barn:
Anders Andersson Bollvig. Ryttare, dragon. Född 1766 29/5 i Laholm (avskrift kyrkobok [Christer Jonsson]). Ryttare 1791 i Laholm (vb [DDSS]). Död 1847 29/5 i Dejarp, Hov (Bertil Koch).
Gift 2:o 1779 6/2 i Laholm (avskrift kyrkobok [Christer Jonsson]) med efterföljande ana.
3 m
Anna Margareta Reuterberg. Född omkring 1749 (avskrift kyrkobok [Christer Jonsson]). Gudmor till skrädd. Carl Söfverborgs barn 1782 i Allerum sn och by (fb). (Barn 1)
Gift 1779 6/2 i Laholm (avskrift kyrkobok [Christer Jonsson]) med föregående ana.
Generation II
4 ff
Christian Bollvig. Christian Bollvig [Höja fb 1727]. Guldsmed. Född 1697 26/2 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Döpt 1697 3/3 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). 1721 i Höja sn (vb). mellan 1722 och 1733 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). 'Mäster' mellan 1727 och 1736 i Ängelholm (Höja fb). Guldsmed [u.patr.;u.o.] 1734 (Höja fb). Begravd 66 år 1 m 25 d gl 1763 5/5 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). (Barn 2, Far 8, Mor 9)
Gift 1721 23/6 i Höja med efterföljande ana.
Barn:
Hans Jacob Bollvig. Född 1722 19/3 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Döpt 1722 27/3 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]).
Hans Jacob Bollvig. Döpt 1723 2/6 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]).
Andreas Bollvig. Född 1725 28/1 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Döpt 1725 2/2 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Död 2 år 10 m gl 1727 22/11 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). Begravd 1727 26/11 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]).
Hans Jacob Bollvig. Guldsmed. Född 1727 26/9 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Döpt 1727 29/9 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Död 47 år 3 m gl 1775 26/2 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). Begravd 1775 3/3 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]).
Andreas Bollvig (Boldevin). Född 1729 3/4 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Döpt 1729 7/4 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Död av rödsot 64 år gl 1790 29/1 i Laholm (avskrift kyrkobok [Christer Jonsson]). (Se 2).
Olof Bollvig. Född 1730 7/12 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Döpt 1730 13/12 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Död 1733 10/1 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). Begravd 1733 14/1 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]).
Olof Bollvig. Född 1733 18/1 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Döpt 1733 19/1 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Död 1733 19/1 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). Begravd 1733 28/1 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]).
5 fm
Regina Winman. Född 1696 (db [ÄSF]). 1721 i Höja sn (vb). mellan 1722 och 1733 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Död 72 år 10 m gl 1767 15/4 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). Begravd 1767 22/4 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). (Barn 2, Far 10)
Gift 1721 23/6 i Höja med föregående ana.
Generation III
8 ff f
Hans Tomasson. Hans Thomeßon [katekismi 1692], Kiämbnären Hans Tommeson [katekismi 1698]. Skrivkunnig [katekismi 1698]. Kämnär. Född 1627 (db [ÄSF]). mellan 1692 och 1698 i Ängelholm (katekismi). Hans har pigan Anna i skolan 1692. Sex år senare har han pigan Tyre och drängen Hans i skola [katekismi]. Kämnär 1698 i Ängelholm (katekismi). Begravd 77 år gl 1704 11/12 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). (Barn 4)
Gift med efterföljande ana.
Barn:
Margareta Hansdotter. Döpt 1694 6/4 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]).
Eleonora Hansdotter. Född 1695 17/7 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Döpt 1695 25/7 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]).
Christian Bollvig. Född 1697 26/2 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Döpt 1697 3/3 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Begravd 66 år 1 m 25 d gl 1763 5/5 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). (Se 4).
Tomas Hansson. Född 1699 7/2 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Döpt 1699 12/2 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]).
Bengta Maria Bollvig. Döpt 1700 23/12 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]). Jungfru 1725 i Ängelholm (vb [ÄSF]). Cautionister:Brodern Mester Christian Bulwig,borgare o.fiolmakare [...?] Änka Bengta Maria Winberg 1758 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). Död 58 år gl 1758 14/6 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). Begravd 1758 18/6 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]).
Bengt Bollvig. 1741 i Ängelholm (fb [ÄSF]).
9 ff m
Anna Maria. Skrivkunnig [katekismi 1698]. Född 1667 (db [ÄSF]). [u.n.] 1698 i Ängelholm (katekismi). Död 62 år gl [u.patr.] 1729 14/2 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). Begravd 1729 23/2 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). (Barn 4)
Gift med föregående ana.
10 fm f
Andreas Winman. Skrivare. Skrivare i Landskrona (Lindberg: Landsstaten). (Barn 5)
Gift
Barn:
Botilla Winman. Född 1693 i Landskrona (db [ÄSF], Lindberg: Landsstaten [ort]). 1716 i Höja sn och by (fb). Död 62 år gl 1755 8/6 i Höja sn och by (db [ÄSF]). Begravd 1755 14/8 i Höja sn och by (db [ÄSF]).
Andreas Winman. Skrivare. Född 1696 (db [ÄSF]). Skrivare [u.o.] 1720 (Höja fb). Avses fadern i Landskrona, eller har Otto Lindberg blandat ihop far(?) och son Andreas Winman? Död 52 år gl 1748 21/11 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). Begravd 1748 27/11 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]).
Regina Winman. Född 1696 (db [ÄSF]). Död 72 år 10 m gl 1767 15/4 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). Begravd 1767 22/4 i Ängelholm (db [ÄSF]). (Se 5).
Elsa Winman. 1729 i Höja sn. 1730 i Viaköp, Farhult (fb). 1732 i Hittarp, Allerum (fb).-- As of 25 Aug 2002, only a portion of this genealogy has been added to PAF data file. Do more research to determine if our Anders was from Ängelholm, and if so, add this info.
LOG/NOTES:
-- Årnaberga is listed in Svensk Ortförteckning as town near Laholm.
-- See father for more notes.
B Correspondence with Evangelisches Zentralarchiv in Berlin, Kirchenbuchstelle, Jebensstrasse 3, 10623 Berlin, Germany, phone 49-30-3-10-10-0, dated 25 Jun 1996. Date calculated from somewhere as 1785. Date given by parish records in Spandau is 18 Jan 1787, which is extremely close, so it is assumed this is correct. Same record (index), FHL 1,271,060 (right side), p. 549 and (actual record) 1,270,688 (left side), p. 422.
Chr Same.
M First marriage found on FHL 48,185, p. 414 Frederiksberg, Kobenhavn, DK parish records. Second marriage on FHL 44,536, p. 38 Skt. Petri tyske (German) sogn. This was also on the IGI as Trinitatis sogn 8 Nov 1816 M201071; 5459.
D His wife listed as "enke," widow, as a witness (this is the most likely scenario of all) in her son's illegitimate child chr. on 2 Nov 1849. Look for any info possible! This guy who kept records kept the most detailed ones I've seen for church records. Find his death; it may even list his parents, his birth, etc.OCCUPATION: Listed apparently as "Kunstdrechsler".
NOTES/LOG:
-- NOTE: Perhaps the guy in Skt. Petri is his uncle.
-- His birth could have been in these parishes:
a) Skt. Nikolai Tauf 1606, Trau 1579 (holes 1603-1624), Sterbe 1606.
b) Skt. Johannis Tauf 1670-1897 (holes 1769-1800), Trau 1674-1897, Sterbe 1689-
1897.
c) Zuchthausgemeinde Tauf 1724, Trau 1729, Sterbe 1724.
d) Militaer-Gemeinde Spandau Taufbuch 1760, Sterbe, Traubuch 1755.
e) Beriln Staaken (Dorf) (possibly/probably wrong) all 1640
f) Marwitz (same) all 1673
f1) Eichstaedt also, all 1681 (under heading of f, Marwitz)
g) Belten (same) all 1674 (holes 1803-1812)
These last 3 (4) are in Spandau "Kreis," district, but I am guessing they are
not in Spandau proper. It is still possible Heinrich reported his birthplace
as Spandau, when actually he was born in Marwitz, so all could be checked. The
only problem we have is that there are holes in Skt. Johannis from 1769-1800,
just the wrong time, since we want 1787.
a) Found Heinrich Ludwig REDEL here.
b) Skt. Johannis, has holes in the proper time period! Perhaps do a check to
see if surnames of our family are in this parish also, esp. dead-ends.
c) Searched Zuchthausgemeinde births from 1774-1793, nix.
d) This is in Provo
e)-g) Another town altogether-- Check 1801 Copenhagen census index to see if he had family from Germany living with or near him.
-- Check Copenhagen probate index on 599139:1 and other probate indexes in Copenhagen, for other clues regarding him and his family -- SRE, 27 Jul 2002.
B Searched Frederiksberg 1788-1790. Nix. Probably Sweden, since her probable sister (other wife of her husband) was born there.
M Marriage found on FHL 48,185 Frederiksberg, Kobenhavn, DK parish records. Her husband married what was probably her sister. This (apparently the same) Magdalena appears as a witness on one of the children's christening records.NOTES/LOG:
-- Found in IGI a christening 13 Jul 1787 (quite a few years off, but the same year as her husband) of a "Lena Bollvig" in Dalby, Malmöhus, Sweden, sealed to parents only 4 Nov 1992 JRIVE. Britt-Marie says that "Lena" could mean Magdalena, but that is not at all common, but it is actually short for Helene. Also, it is possible that "Lena" could appear in a birth record as a full name.
-- To find her in Sweden, as well as her sister?, go to Sweden to Stockholm and the biggest cities. First find out if Bolwig is a German or a Swedish name. If German, go to the biggest cities and to the German churches in those cities to look for her birth and that of her sister?. Checked on the name. There are a few Bolwig's in Germany, but by far, the greatest number of people with the surname is in Denmark. Although this woman's sister was born in Sweden, I suspect their family originates in Denmark. Scandinavians would travel from country to country looking for work, which was no big deal. Probably no emigration/immigration records exist for intra-Scandinavian moves, either. Checked 1994 addendum for name also. 3 occurrences total found in Germany in IGI in Stettin, Pommern in Sankt Jakob and Sankt Gertrud. Checked for emmigration to DK. Nix. Also the name Bolwig occurs quite frequently in Denmark. Also occurs in Sweden, however.
-- New IGI test database: Possibly have found the family in Sweden. Found parents Anders Bollvig and Anna Margareta Reuterberg having children in Laholm, Halland, Sweden. The birth of this Ellena is same year as calculated birth year from marriage? age of our person, 1779. Also, there is a Magdalena, her sister in Sweden (estimated birth date is only 2 yrs. off from one in Sweden), which would match up with Heinrich Ludwig Redel's 2nd wife, Magdalena Bolvig (in her marriage record in Copenhagen, she is said to have been born in Sweden). Assumption is that HLR may have married sisters. In christening records of kids of Helene and HLR, Magdalena Bolvig is listed as a witness, and he later marries Magdalena Bolvig after death of his 1st wife, Helene. Bolvig is not a very common name. The liklihood that this isn't the family seems somewhat low. The items that should be checked are:
-- Check for births of children to get more info on family.
-- Check for marriage of parents.
-- Look for deaths of family members in parish records after 1779 to see if Ellena died before the proper time and couldn't be our person. Actually, there is a cross next to her birth record in the parish registers. Often (though not always) this meant that the person died as a child. Since there is no date, it could have been any time, however, as I have often seen this before in European records, where the person lived to be an adult. It is possible that word of her death in Denmark came to the priest in Sweden.
-- Check for probate records in Sweden. Law was that everyone was supposed to have a will, but in reality, probably only one sixth did.
-- Check town and other records from the locality.
-- Check for death records of parents of Swedish family in Copenhagen.
-- Check probate records in Denmark to see if the Bolvig's family is mentioned. This would definitely cinch it.
-- Check husförhörslängder and inn- and uttflyttede in the parish (also for Reuterberg family) in Sweden to see if the family could be found. Records don't exist until 1803 at the earliest for these types of records (the family might have moved earlier), but all avenues should be checked: Husförhörslängder 1806-1833, FHL 134316, 1803 on 919994:4 for the city of Laholm. Also, moving records 1808-1811, FHL 134301:1.
-- Check other levels of jurisdiction for Swedish locality also.
-- See sister's notes and find her marriage record in Copehagen. This is extremely important. Find marriage age somehow. Search IGI for her other two sisters' marriages in Copenhagen to help cinch -- SRE, 22 July 2002.
-- Checked from time of Helene's birth in Laholm parish records (both land- and stadsförsamling records are together during this time) until May 1809, the time of her marriage in Copenhagen, to see if our Laholm person perhaps died during that period, but found nothing. Checked also index to husförhörslängder 1803-1823 for the city and found nothing. Checked line-by-line husförhörslängd for 1806 for country and found nothing. The family must have moved by this time, which is consistent with their being in Copenhagen, at least part of them. Also searched and found parents' marriage, just before Helene's birth. Searched for her mother's birth 1850-1851, but found nothing. Found death of sister, Botilla, just a year after birth. The only Reuterberg that was found while searching the records (except index to husförhörslängder) was a Christina Reuterberg, d. 22 Jun 1785, bur 26 Jun, widow from Ebbarps Hus?, aged 84 years (i.e., b. 1701). Also, there was a Bengta Reuteberg from Årnaberg, who was listed as a witness on the christening record of one of Helene's siblings. There was a Helene Bolvig b. 1796, but the parents are not correct. The father's name, though the same, is a different person with a different occupation (according to birth record of child). I checked for a marriage record for the later one (suspecting Anders was married twice), but couldn't find anything. Nor did I find a death record for his wife, Anna Margareta. There was an Anders Bolvig who died 29 Jan 1790, and was bur. 3 Feb. He could have been the father of this family, as his occupation was the same, but he was age 64 in 1790, which would have made his wife a lot younger than he was (she was born 1750/1751, calculated from age at time of births of children). It is definitely possible, though. In Botille's death record, just a few months later (4 Oct 1790), however, it did not mention that her father was deceased -- SRE, 23 Jul 2002.
-- EVIDENCE: Most of what I have is circumstantial evidence for this connection so far. I want to write out the logic I see so far, to keep track of possibilities. Heinrich Ludwig Redel marries Helene Bolvig in Copenhagen. They have several children, and one witness found in their christening records is Magdalena Bolvig, presumably a relative of Helene. The closer the relationship, the more likely. Though Magdalena could be an aunt, mother, or cousin, it seems more probable that she would be a sister. Helene dies a few years after they marry, and Heinrich Ludwig Redel shows up marrying again, in another Copenhagen parish, this time to Magdalena Bolvig, hardly a coincidence. He is listed as a widower. If they are related, HLR is more likely to marry someone close to his wife's age, i.e., it doesn't seem likely that Magdalena would be a mother or aunt (unless a young aunt). Still, I would bet first on a sister than another relationship. In the second marriage, HLR is listed as having been born in Spandau [Germany], and Magdalena in Sweden. Whatever the relationship between Helene and Magdalena, if related, it is possible to assume they might have come from the same place, i.e., Sweden. We have Helene's age from her death, which puts her birth at 1779. I checked the new test IGI for a Helene Bolvig born 1779 in Sweden, with a sister Magdalena. I found one that scenario this time. Magdalena's birth year was only 2 yrs off of my estimated date. On checking the county they came from, Halland, it was noted to be on the west coast, about as close to Denmark as you can get. Since the name Bolvig is not very common, and because all these other circumstantial pieces of evidence fit, it would be strange if this were not the right connection. All possibilities need to be exhausted, however -- SRE, 23 Jul 2002.
-- Things still to check: Check Danish censuses online to see if can find either Anders Bolvig or Anna Margareta Reuterberg as head of household in Denmark, hopefully in Copenhagen area, with children they had in Sweden. If found, this would basically prove the theory. Also, look very carefully at the church records associated with Heinrich Ludwig Redel and his families. Re-examine recs, for example, in the christening record of Helene Christiane Rødel, dau. of Heinrich Ludwig Redel and Helene Bolvig, the first witness is listed as Magdalena Bolvig, and some type of relationship is mentioned -- SRE, 23 Jul 2002.
-- Just have been examining this note with Magdalena as a witness. It looks like it says "Magdalena Bolvig, verst. Schneidermeister Tochter" = "Magdalena Bolvig, deceased master tailor's daughter". This is an extremely interesting clue, since the Anders Bolvig in Sweden is listed as a tailor (skräddar) in records, and in the death record of the Anders Bolvig (presumably the same one) who died in 1790 says he was a "Skräddarmeister", or master tailor. Also, in marriage record of Magdalena and Heinrich Ludwig Redel, she is again mentioned as the "deceased master tailor's daughter," and that she was "born in Sweden". This seems obviously to be the same person as the one mentioned in the christening record with HLR's and Helena's child. Less and less room for doubt -- 24 Jul 2002.
-- Checked and found a will for Anna Margareta Reuterberg yesterday. This is definitely the right connection. The will mentioned all the children of Anders Bolvig and Anna Margareta Reuterberg by name (except Botilla, who died at age 1), where they were, the fact that Helene had gone to Copenhagen (also Magdalena and Anna Christine) and married, that Helene was deceased and had four surviving children. So this is a 100% connection now. There is one remaining problem, and that is that there are at least two Anders Bolvig's, (both tailors) in this town around the same time, possibly more. There are two wills, one for Anders (married to Elna Brockman) and another for Anna Maria Reutersberg (married to an Anders Bolvig). We know for sure that our person was married in 1779; that his wife died in January of 1818; the names of his children and details concerning them. The Anders in the other will (the one who I'm not sure is ours) was married to Elna Brockman. His will was written in 1778, but it is not known when it was executed. The Anders Bolvig who died in 1790 would have been 25 years older than Anna Margareta Reutersberg. That Anders also mentioned a son Anders in his will, who would have been 12 in 1778. That one doesn't seem like ours either, because he would have been 13 when married to Anna Maria Reutersberg, who was 28, in 1779. Though also possible, this seems unlikely. Our Anders was mentioned in his marriage record as being a tailor, and wouldn't this have been unusual for a 13-year old to already have an occupation? Is it possible our Andreas had two families, and that his first wife died? That both Anders as the same man? Records should be checked for death of Elna Brockman in Laholm from 1778-1779 (1778 is when the (first?) Anders drew up his will (in which his wife, Elna Brockman is mentioned), and 1779 is when our Anders married Anna Margareta Reutersberg). It seems logical that our Anders might have been the one who died in 1790 since I checked all death records from 1779 up to 1809 and didn't find an Anders Bolvig in any other death record. It would also fall in line with information we have regarding his death. He was deceased by 29 Apr 1816, in which Magdalena appears as a witness in the christening record of Helena Christiane Rødel, child of Henrich Ludwig Redel and Helene Bolvig. She is said to be the daughter of a deceased tailor. So what now needs to be checked is:
-- Translate the will to glean as much information as possible to add to our known facts. Index to wills is found on FHL 919994:5. Actual will is found on FHL 188640, 1818, v. 9, p. 425. The other Andreas (with wife Elna Brockman) is found on FHL 188638, 1778, v. 6, p. 575. There were no other Bolvig's or Reuterberg's in index.
-- Check for death of Elna Brockman in Laholm after 1778.
-- Check citizenship records of Laholm for all these people, to see if there is more info on how they fit in, FHL 219655:2.
-- Possibly check Småprotokoll, 1634-1850, FHL 188630-4, 219657 for guardian accounts, marriage settlements, mortgage records, other court papers.
-- Check censuses during this time period for Laholm. These are found under the county, Halland. This is one of the best bets, since it will hopefully show a good part of the family. During certain years, only those ages 13-63? were mentioned on census, so be careful to check as many as possible to get an accurate picture of family.
-- Check Copenhagen 1801 census index for info on Helene, her sisters, or her husband Heinrich Ludwig Redel's family. See if her family is in Copenhagen yet, or if Heinrich's father and other relatives are there, and if either HB or HLR has other relatives from Sweden or Germany living with or near them -- SRE, 27 Jul 2002.
-- Checked citizenship records, FHL 219655:2. Unfortunately, there is a gap for the critcal period, 1729-1850. Also, it appears only the names of the citizens are given, with no further information -- SRE, 30 Jul 2002.
-- Checked "Register to Copenhagens porbate records" with subject heading of "Denmark, København, København - Probate records - indexes." This is not an index per se, but just a guide to finding the records. It may be worth checking some day, though it is very lengthy, and it would be hard to determine which ones ancestors would have been in -- SRE, 30 Jul 2002.
-- Checked 1801 census index to Copenhagen and didn't find any occurrences of our Bolvig family or of Helene's husband, Henrich Ludwig Redel. There was a Helene Bolvig 4 years old only. There were some Redel families (under various spellings, e.g., Rihdel, Ridel, Redel, Rydahl, Rødohl, Rødel, Riedel, etc.), especially in Sankt Anna Vester Quarter, as well as Øster Quarter, but didn't appear to be related -- SRE, 30 Jul 2002.
-- Check book INTL 948.64 P29c Calendar to Hök district, Halland County, Sweden wills -- SRE, 31 Jul 2002.
-- In christening records of children of Anna Margareta Reutersberg and Anders Bolvig, these are places where witnesses came from: Leyeby, Årneberga. Many witnesses are tailors -- SRE, 31 Jul 2002.
-- Began checking censuses today. They are wonderful records, and take place every five to ten years, going back to the 1600's. I looked at 1785, 1790, and 1810 this time. In 1810, Anna Margareta was living with a shoemaker Wallgren, apparently the same one mentioned in her will. She was a widow at that point. Children are mentioned in the earlier two, and so this is definitely the family. It seems the head of household listed is the wife, Anna Margareta Reutersberg, possibly because he was "over-age". Those who were over or under age (over 63 or under 13?) are usually not mentioned by name, but can still be found on the census. In 1785, though, our Anders would have been under 63 still, so was it different age during this time period or in this locality? The 1790 census seems to show Anders Bolvig as still alive (the one who died in 1790 at age 64 (calculated birth year 1726), though we show him having died 29 Jan 1790. It is possible that the census taker came before that date. Also, the burial of record of his daughter, Botilla in Oct of 1790 says that her father is deceased. It seems that not only is there nothing directly contradictory to ours being the one who died in 1790, the facts seem to be pointing to it. In fact, had a look at the 1795 census quickly, and Anna Margareta Reuterberg was found, listed as a widow. I don't see any other possibility -- SRE, 31 Jul 2002.
-- Check more censuses (especially 1795, 1800, 1805, which cover the time of existence of the family; 1726-1750, annually, also 1755, 1760, 1764, 1768, 1772, 1778, which cover the lifetime of Anders Bolvig) to cover entire period of their lives and relatives' lives. Look for other Bolvig's and Reuterberg's, especially the other Andreas/Anders Bolvig. Was he perhaps the same one as ours, just married to another woman, and having another family? -- SRE, 31 Jul 2002.
-- Have wills and portions of census that are not decipherable looked at by Swedish reference or catalogers to get all pertinent facts -- SRE, 31 Jul 2002.
-- Have thought more about Anders Bolvig and how many there were. I checked more census years and other years. The 1790 census apparently shows him as still being alive. In the death record of his youngest daughter, Botilla, in the same year, her father is listed as deceased already. This nails down our person as the one having died in 1790, and therefore, the one who was born in 1726. Checked earlier census records, as well. Since his family was begun in 1779, the 1785 entry shows most of his family. The one previous to that for Laholm city, is 1772. Interestingly, there is an Anders Bolvig in what appears to be the same house (#94), along with some Brockmans/Bråckmans in the house. Also, Anders' last name is listed as Bolderius. This really made me wonder. There were not two Anders Bolvig's in the same house, as if one were a parents of the other. There was just one. Checked wills again. Death of Anders was not mentioned; actually the wives died in both cases. I wondered again if this Anders was the same one married earllier to Brockman. This prompted me to check for his Elina Brockman's death again. This time I found it. She died in early 1778. Also checked earlier censuses. Apparently the same house (#94) through the years was Anders' place until 1750, when Anders Olsson Brockman was listed as head of household, with daughter Elina. In 1755, Anders Brockman, his daughter, Elina, and her husband, Anders Bolvig, all are listed, with relationships clearly mentioned. It became obvious through all this that Anders Bolvig (also listed Boldvin and Bollderius in these earlier censuses) had married Elina Brockman, lived with her father, had children, his wife died in 1778, he remarried in 1779 and had a second family in old age, and then died himself in 1790. Only one Ander with two families. His second wife died in 1818. Several of his daughters moved to Copenhagen. There ia another Anders having children in Laholm in the 1790's, but this must be his son, Anders, by his first marriage -- SRE, 01 Aug 2002.
-- Halland was part of Denmark until 1680 -- SRE, 01 Aug 2002.
B FHL 44,524 parish records Skt. Petri (German) sogn. Some question about dates, but this seems most sure. Possibly born 3 March, possibly baptized 7 June
Chr Same.
B FHL 44,524 parish records Skt. Petri (German) sogn.
Chr Same.
D Same.
Bur Same.
NOTES/LOG:
-- HIS NAME COULD POSSIBLY BE GUNDER HEINRICH, BECAUSE THOR'S SON WAS GUNDER HEINRICH. MOTHER'S NAME WOULD POSSIBLY BE THORA HELENA OR AT LEAST THORA. We already know that the father's name is GUNDER. There are three possible persons in Norway, according to the 1801 census, who could be the right ones (Thor GUNDERSEN would have been about 3 or 4 in 1801. The only info we know for sure is this man's name is Gunder. this is not 100% verified, but just a possibility. CHECKED INTO THIS LATER. I BELIEVE NEITHER OF THE THREE HAD A THORA AS MOTHER TO THOR GUNDERSEN, BUT NEED TO CHECK NOTES TO VERIFY THIS.
-- ANOTHER IDEA MIGHT BE TO CHECK RECORDS IN NEW ZEALAND, I.E., OBITUARY (THIS WAS A FAIRLY PROMINENT MAN) TO FIND HIS DAD, GUNDER'S BIRTHPLACE IN NORWAY. MAYBE A COPY OF HIS FUNERAL CAN EVEN BE HAD, SINCE HE WAS FAIRLY PROMINENT. POSSIBLY LOOK IN SOME MORE HISTORY OR ARCHIVES FOR MORE INFO. IF CAN FIND FUNERAL HOME RECORDS, IT MIGHT EVEN BE BETTER. THINK OF MORE IDEAS ON HIS END OF THINGS, SINCE HE DIED IN 1898.
-- 1ST KID IS NAMED FOR SURE AFTER BOTH HIS GRANDFATHERS. THE SECOND GIRL IS NAMED AFTER 1 GRANDMOTHER FOR SURE AND 1 OTHER ONE IS PROBABLY THORA.
NOTES/LOG:
-- HER NAME COULD POSSIBLY BE THORA HELENA, BECAUSE THOR'S DAUGHTER WAS THORA HELENA. FATHER'S NAME WOULD POSSIBLY BE GUNDER HEINRICH OR AT LEAST GUNDER. We already know that the father's name is GUNDER. There are three possible persons in Norway, according to the 1801 census, who could be the right ones (Thor GUNDERSEN would have been about 3 or 4 in 1801. The only info we know for sure is this woman's husbands' name is Thor. This is not 100% verified, but just a possibility.
B Correspondence with Evangelisches Zentralarchiv in Berlin, Kirchenbuchstelle, Jebensstrasse 3, 10623 Berlin, Germany, phone 49-30-3-10-10-0, dated 25 Jun 1996.
M Skt. Nikolai, Spandau, Brandenburg, Preussen, Germany parish records, FHL 1,271,066, p. 410, index, vol. 3, pg. 44. Also, FHL 1,271,037, p. 44 (end).NOTES/LOG:
-- IN A GAZETEER, I FOUND A WITTENBERG EXTREMELY NEAR SPANDAU. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THIS FAMILY IS ALSO FROM THE SPANDU PARISH, AND NOT NECESSARILY FROM THE WITTENBERG, SACHSEN, AREA. THIS IS NOT VERY LIKELY, THOUGH, SINCE THE MARRIAGE RECORD OF THIS PERSON SAYS HIS FATHER IS FROM "WITTENBERG IN SACHSEN," WHICH AT THAT TIME WOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE KINGDOM OF SAXONY, WHEREAS THE SPANDAU WOULD NOT - SRE 1996?
-- Check death indexes, Wilhelmina Fridrica, Carl Fridrich, and August Ferdinand especilly - SRE 1996?
-- Checked death indexes, found stuff on both Wiesenthal and Rodel. Need to
double-check all. Also, look up Wiesenthal in birth index. I believe her
husband was apprenticed to her father as a wigmaker - SRE 1996?
-- Wittenberg is in the Diocese Wittenberg, Konststorialbezirk Magdeburg. Tauf-, Heirats-, and Todesbuecher start 1560, 1560, and 1563. There is also a Kommunion-Weinrechnungsbuch from 1533 available. Info from 943; B4m; v. 30 - SRE 1996?
-- Checked citizens' records, Künstler (see Innungssachen, quite a bit below) records for Wittenberg; it didn't look like they would yield any info on his father whatsoever. Best bet is to try looking into birth records from churches for genealogy. Janet knows a person from Saxony, says she might help us do this genealogy - SRE 1996?
-- RECHECK THESE CITIZENSHIP RECORDS, AS PARISH REGISTERS YIELDED CONFLICTING INFORMATION - SRE 1 Jan 2001.
-- Searched index of wills for Spandau (Testamentsakten, 1685-1891; Spandau (Brandenburg). Amtsgericht), FHL 578047 and didn't find any occurrence of the surname REDEL/RÖDEL - SRE 30 Dec 2000.
-- Searched "Berliner Kunsthandwerker vom 15. bis 20. Jahrhudnert" by K. F. Delfs, but found no occurrence of the surname REDEL - SRE 30 Dec 2000.
-- Had research done in Wittenberg parish done. See this person's father's notes for information - SRE 1 Jan 2001.
-- POSSIBLY ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO CINCH THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THIS PERSON AND HIS ACTUAL FATHER IS TO CHECK A BÜRGERBUCH FOR SPANDAU. There is a Bürgerbuch ("Das Spandauer Bürgerbuch von 1600 bis 1734 und die Spandauer Neubürgerliste von 1579 bis 1596" by Ingeborg Kolb, FHL INTL 943.2 B4st No. 1, Naustadt an der Aisch, Germany: Verlag Degener & Co., Inhaber Gerhard Gessner, 1971). The original was destroyed in WWII, but info was transcribed previous to that and later published. It is unknown if later books for Spandau were made, are still extant, or were destroyed. Write to Spandau city to find out if a later book exists. This person would likely be in it. During this time period, much information in the Bürgerbuch was often listed about each citizen, including parentage and place of birth. This would be another check to see if Johann Christian REDEL or Gottfried Wilhlem REDEL is actually this person's father - SRE 1 Jan 2001.
-- Checked (Berlin wills, which may or may not include Spandau) Kammergericht Testaments (Findkartei), Ab-Zy, FHL 6109218. Didn't find any Redel at the proper time who would have been ours - SRE 12 Jan 2001.
-- I wrote to Berlin, but never received a response. The alternative is to have a researcher (possibly Heidrun Linke), check on Bürgerbücher, just to make sure. This would definitely cinch or disprove it -- SRE 7 Aug 2001.
-- See also this person's father's notes, for more information on connection to this person -- SRE 7 Aug 2001.
-- Checked Bürgerbücher again. DID find the only other.
-- Don't have a calculated age for him. But his birth in Wittenberg is 2 yrs. before his estimated date at marriage would have been. Also, am having Heidrun Linke look for this guy and his father-in-law in a Bürgerbuch or other source in Berlin - SRE 1 Oct 2001.
-- Wittenberg is in the Diocese Wittenberg, Konststorialbezirk Magdeburg. Tauf-, Heirats-, and Todesbuecher start 1560, 1560, and 1563. There is also a Kommunion-Weinrechnungsbuch from 1533 available. Info from 943; B4m; v. 30 - SRE 1997.
-- Had research done by priest, Ulrich Beyer, Evangel. Stadtkirchengemeinde, Jüdenstraße 35, 06886 Lutherstadt Wittenberg, GERMANY. Correspondence is dated 26 Feb 1998 from a request originally written 26 May 1997.
-- Priest doing research in 1998 checked for Rödel, Redel, Regel, found many entries, but didn't find any baptisms from 1740-1780, marriages from 1750-1780, or burials from 1715-1780 - SRE 1997.
-- Although it was not necessarily our relative, a Redel had a child Gottfried Wilhelm (same name as our person) and was a bricklayer/mason. Also, another Redel, whose wife was a witness in the marriage of this Redel person found by the preacher, was a bricklayer - SRE 1997.
-- This last note should be updated. More information was sent to SRE by the priest, Beyer, in 1998. It is no longer as doubtful as to the connection. Johann Christian REDEL had two families, one from 1718-1728. His wife committed suicide in 1751, and he remarried in the same year. The following year, he had a son Gottfried Wilhelm REDEL. Even though the marriage of Gottfried Wilhelm REDEL Jr. stated that he was the 2nd son of GWR Sr., the records show he wasn't. However, JCR had lost all of his sons by both marriages except two by the time of GWR Jr.'s marriage, in which he was listed as the 2nd son. One died later (but before the marriage of GWR Jr.), at least, his name is the same: Andreas Gottlieb Rödel, and apparently, no other person in the parish records had the same name. He also was probably the Andreas Gottlieb RÖDEL, whose wife was listed as a witness in JCR's second marriage. It is most likely that he was JCR's son, which would have left GWR as the second LIVING SON of JCR, one from his previous marriage (Johann Gottfried REDEL), and then GWR would be the 1st son of JCR from his second marriage, but the second oldest living son. However, this would not explain why in GWR Jr.'s marriage record, it lists his father's name as being the same as his. The priest seemed to think that the informant for this information on the marriage record was provided by the bride's father, so it could possibly be thrown into doubt. Not sure why this was suspected. If true, there is a fairly good probability that JCR is GWR's father. If GWR was the informant,and recording priest made no errors, probably JCR is not the father - SRE 1998.
-- There is also A Wilhelm RÖDEL who had a child in 1723. This could also be our person, but it does seem a bit early. WR was an army surgeon. He may have had two occupations (mar of GWR Sr.'s son in Berlin says dad was a bricklayer) - SRE 1998.
-- Searched "Berliner Kunsthandwerker vom 15. bis 20. Jahrhudnert" by K. F. Delfs, but found no occurrence of the surname REDEL - SRE 30 Dec 2000.
-- Searched index of wills for Spandau (Testamentsakten, 1685-1891; Spandau (Brandenburg). Amtsgericht), FHL 578047 and didn't find any occurrence of the surname REDEL - SRE 30 Dec 2000.
-- Searched the Bürgerbücher for Wittenberg, FHL 1646900:2 and 1646901:1. On 1646901:1 (checked 1751-1810), there was an index, so checked this first. Didn't find any known persons, but did find:
RÖDER, Johann Gottfried, Schumacher, den 9. Juni 1781, etc.
RETTEL, Johann Gottfiried, K... den 24. Aug 1826, etc.
On 1646900:2, though, did find:
RÖTEL, Andr. Gottlieb, ein MAURER und hieseiger Bürger Sohn had den hiesigen Bürgers Eid... erlangt...8 Nov 1749, p. 255.
This was very revealing. For one thing, it is probably the son of JCR listed in the birth records of the parish, and the same one whose wife was a witness at JCR's second marriage (notice also that he is a bricklayer, just as JCR was). Also, it states that his father was a citizen. I wasn't sure if a Mauergeselle (bricklayer apprentice/journeyman) would be a citizen. Experts at the FHL said probably he would have to be a master bricklayer to get citizenship, but it depended on the area. In these Bürgerbücher from Wittenberg, though, many journeymen were listed as citizens, so this would pose no problem in this regard. Also, since AGR, the son of JCR, died in 1751, two years after receiving citizenship, this person still fits the scenario.
Other REDEL's were also found:
Herr Christian Gottfried RIEDEL, ein hier? gebürtiger Bürger und ... 11 Mar 1741 (RELATIONSHIP?), p. unknown.
Jacob RIEGEL...18 Feb 1731, p. 213.
Mstr. Christoph RIEDL, bisheriger Bürger und Zimgiesser yu Belzig wohnen alhier ein Haus gekauft...17 Jun 1728. COULD THIS BE A BROTHER TO JCR? He was previously a citizen before coming to Wittenberg.
Christoph RIEDL, aus Oberlichtenau bey Dresden gebürtig, hat den Bürgereid...3 Nov 1712. COULD THIS ALSO BE A BROTHER TO JCR? Oberlichenau in German auto atlas, p. 116 Of41, near Kamenz.
Christian K/Redel ein Crahmer aus Dresden hat den...26 Jun 1711.
NOTE THAT NO GOTTFRIED WILHELM REDEL WAS LISTED HERE. THE GWR WHO WAS THE SON OF JCR EITHER DIDN'T BECOME A CITIZEN OR LEFT TOWN.
Didn't find JCR, although the records state that he was a citizen. He must have come from elsewhere, since his birth couldn't be found. His calculated birth date is 1691. Probably he was was born, became a citizen, and married elsewhere. Is it possible he could also have had other children in the other locality? If so, that might debunk the theory of his being our relative, especially if other living sons are found (GWR's marriage says he was the 2nd son of his father, which I suppose, may or may not be true).
In toto, searched 1714-1800 and part of 1713. Starting p. 75 of 1713, earlier records could be searched, although probably the most important ones for this family have already been searched -- SRE 3 Aug 2001.
-- So far, each piece of evidence shows that JCR was the father of Gottfried Wilhelm REDEL except the actual name. Have researcher check Spandau Bürgerbücher or other source she knows of to try to cinch it either way. Hopefully there will be a Spandau record showing GWR as a son of a JCR. Our person would probably have been in the Bürgerbuch for Spandau around the 1770's. In this time period, parents were definitely being listed. Pros and cons for argument of GWR being JCR's son:CONS:
-- The marriage record of our Gottfried Wilhelm REDEL in Spandau says his father's name is also Gottfried Wilhelm REDEL, not Johann Christian REDEL.PROS:
-- Our GWR in marriage record says his dad is from Wittenberg. JCR is the only REDEL appearing in the parish registers that is even close to fitting the bill (see research reports of prish priest).
-- There is a GWR born in Wittenberg with a birth date within two years of our GWR of Spandau, based on his marriage date -- basically a perfect fit.
-- JCR is a bricklayer journeyman, just as GWR's marriage record states.
-- JCR is deceased by time of son's marriage, which is also correct (JCR died 1771, Wittenberg parish registers).
-- GWR is the second living son of JCR from Wittenberg. All others died. It is not sure which son was left besides GWR, but it would have to have been one from the first marriage (the other one from the second marriage we have record of died young also), and we have death records, whether by name or not, for all other sons of JRC by the time of the marriage of GWR in Spandau. Since the two unnamed children of JCR's who died, died in 1724 and 1729, neither one of these could have been the GWR born to JRC. The first mentioned death could be either Johann Christian or Daniel. The second son who died could be either Johann Christian, Daniel, or Johann Gottfried, leaving Gottfried Wilhelm as a definite survivor.
-- Andreas Gottlieb REDEL, son of JCR is in Bürgerbücher of Wittenberg, and is listed as an apprentice bricklayer, just as JCR was. He was alive in 1749, but died two years later, leaving (supposedly) JCR only two living sons left.
-- The absence of a GWR in the Bürgerbücher of Wittenberg is quite conspicuous, since Andreas Gottlieb, supposed brother, as well as JCR, supposed father, were both citizens. Probably the GWR listed in this parish left.
-- GWR doesn't appear any more in parish registers of Wittenberg either, indicating that he probably left there.
-- There was never a death record for a GWR Sr. in Wittenberg, which one would expect, if the Spandau marriage record said GWR Jr.'s "deceased father was from Wittenberg." There is only a death for a JCR. Again, he may have died elsewhere, but it's just one more circumstancial piece of evidence to think about.LOG/NOTES (cont.):
-- In other words, so far, every piece of evidence points to JCR being the father of the GWR from Spandau except that the father's name is wrong in the Spandau marriage book. The priest from Wittenbeg, who did research for this family, believes that this is not at all uncommon, since the bride's father would probably have been the informant. I'm not sure about this, but the possibility should be checked out, since that would be one more piece of evidence either for or against -- SRE 7 Aug 2001.
-- Next idea is to check the tax rolls of Wittenberg (Schoßbücher, tax books, a tax of 1% put on property), to see if GWR shows up there. If he does early on, but disappears later, that would be even more evidence for him having left. Even more important than this is checking the Bürgerbücher of Spandau. If books exist, and JCR is mentioned as his father, we have definitely found the right connection. Have a researcher check it out -- SRE 7 Aug 2001.
-- Searched for Johann Christian Redel, his children, and other possible relatives in Schoßbücher, Steuerregister, 1556-1895. I checked everything between 1797 and 1782 (except 1751-1758 was just a check for Samuel Rödel). Also checked 1673-1696 for entries of Samuel Rödel.
-- 1772-1785 on FHL 1646890:1, p. 117, no. 30, Gottlieb Rödel, Mauergeselle (by this time, Andreas Gottlieb son of Johan Christian, was dead, so couldn't have beeen him).
-- 1775-1782 on FHL 16468990:2, Gottlieb Rödel, p. 117, no. 30. Also, Samuel Rödel, p. 209, no. 20. Johann Adam _, Fuhrmann, p. 280, no. 77.
-- 1759-1766, FHL 1646889, p. 61 ( or 41 or 91), no. 80. Frau Rath... Catharina Riedelin erben, etc.; p. 116, no. ? Gottlieb Rödel, Mauergeselle; p. 210, no. 40 Samuel Rödel; p. 312, no. 84 Christian David Riedl.
-- 1713-1722, FHL 1646884, frame 219, p. 215, no. 40 Samuel Rödel;
-- 1723-1732, FHL 1646885, p. 208, frame 217, no. 40 Samuel Rodel (father of, or brother to, Johann Christian Redel?); frame 261, p. 252, no. 122-123. Christian Rüdell...Christoph Rüdel.
-- 1733-1742, FHL 1646886, frame 60, p. 50, no. 10, Christian Rüdel, Bauer; frame 223, p. 202, no. 40, Samuel Rödel; frame 337?, p. 308, no. 84, Christian Rüdell; frame 530, p. 497, Herr Christian gottfried Redel (paid less tax because was paied bz official in his jurisdiction), ...d. 28 Feb 1841.
-- 1743-1750, FHL 1646887, frame 60,p. 54, no. 10 Christian Riedel; frame 165, p. 189, no, 170 Christian Riedel...ietza Christian gottfried Riedel; frame 217, p. 211, no. 40 Samuel Rödel; frames 325-326, p. 3318-319, nos 84-86. Hr...Christian Riedel, Christian David Riedel, Hr. dr. Johann Christian Riedell (probably not ours?); frame 501, p. 490 Christian Gottfried Riedel.
-- 1697-1712, FHL 1646883, item 1, frame 132, p. 122, no. 49 Samuel Rödel; item 2, frame 225, p. 218, no. 40, Samuel Rödel, Wittwer; frame 539 p. 520 Christian Rudel, Kramer and Christoph Rudel
-- 1685-1696, FHL 1646882, frame 216,p. 105, no. 40 Samuell Rödell; FRAME? OUR JOHANN CHRISTIAN REDEL, 1685-1690, paid all 5 years.
-- 1751-1758, FHL 1646888, frame 212, p. 206, no. 40 Samuel Rödel
-- 1679-1684, FHL 1647001, item 2, frame 115, no. 40, Elias Wedelicks Witbe 1679-1682. Samuel Rödel takes over propertz in 1683, MENTIONS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT WHERE HE CAME FROM, SO DON'T KNOW IF HE IS CONNECTED TO OUR REDELS OR NOT.
-- 1673-1678, FHL 1647001, frame 111, p. 104, no. 40, elias Wedelick (person owning property before Samuel Rödel). No mention of Samuel.
-- STILL TO CHECK IN THIS RECORD ARE KATASTERBUCH 1688; FHL 1659609. Try to see where Samuel Rödel came from. He bought property in Wittenberg in 1683. Also, Catasta Rechnung, 1702, 1706-11, Bd. 46, FHL 1659617 -- SRE 10 Aug 2001.
-- Checked Innngssachen (guild record) 1420-1855 for Wittenberg. Found nothing. FHL 1646822 (Künstler und Handwerker, 1420-1748) only contains articles and guidelines, i.e., Innungsakten. Also checked FHL 1659606, item 3, for actual lists of members. Checked Maurer. There was only one -- Aug 2001.
-- Checked Bürgerbücher, 1627-1908. Gottfried Wilhelm Redel was conspicuously absent. Johann Christian Redel was a citizen (though not on Wittenberg lists), and so was his son, Andreas Gottlieb:
-- FHL 1646901:1 Röder, Johann Gottfried, Schumacher, den 9 Juni 1781.
-- Same, Rettel, Johann Gottfried, K.., den 24 Aug 1826.
-- Checked index to 1810, nothing.
-- FHL 1646900:2, p. 255 ANDREAS GOTTLIEB RÖTEL EIN MAURER UND HIESIGER BÜRGER SOHN HAT D. HIESIGER BÜRGER... ERLANGTAN DEN...BÜRGER...8 NOV 1749 (just before his death).
-- A Geselle in Wittenberg definitely had citizenship.
-- Christoph Riedel... aus Oberlichtenaug, Dresden geburtig, hat den Bürgereid...3 Nov 1712 (Oberlichtenau bei Dresden, road atlas p. 116 Of41).
-- Christian R/Kedel ein Crahmer aus Dressden...26 Jun 1711.
So found the son of Johann Christian Redel: Andreas Gottlieb RÖTEL. Father listed as citizen -- Aug 2001.
-- Checked some sources from Gerichtsbücher, Handelsbücher, Vormundschaften, Güterverkaufbriefe 1377-1820. Checked Vormundschaften (guardian records), FHL 1646900:1. Checked Jun 1772-Jul 1773 (also through p. 368, frame 743, unless this is the same date). Nothing. Could this be worth further study? He would have been 19 when his father died and 20 when mother died. Not sure of technically what constituted a minor during this time -- 13 Aug 2001.
-- Write to Ulrich Beyer, Evangel. Stadtkirchengemeinde, Jüdenstraße 35, 06886 Lutherstadt Wittenberg, GERMANY again for the following information: marriage of Johann Christian REDEL and Christina ca. 1618. It may show origin place of JCR. Also need to as him for name of child of JCR, which we don't have, but which, according to p. 9 of Ulrich's 26 Feb 1998 report, is in a register: "Nach dem alph. Register, soll Seite 782 die Taufe eines weiteren Kindes v. J. Chr. Redel stehen, es ist aber weder 780-789, noch 827, 872 (oder 287 und 278) etwas zu finden." Also, write to have him check a bit earlier for Johann Christian Redel's birth or other possible siblings in the 1680's-1710's - SRE, 16 Oct 2001.
-- Did this person go to Denmark with his son, perhaps his whole family? Check for his death, or his other children's marriages there, just as his son Heinrich Ludwig was married there -- SRE, 16 Oct 2001.
-- Just found a note that I had re-seached Testamentsakten (1685-1891) for Spandau. On FHL 578047, p. 256, Riedell, Lftd. Nr. 258, Lager Nr. 6: Johann Altsitzer u. Frau Anna Dorothea geb. Bug..., vormals Witwe Bötzer von We/u/astermale. Sounds like it's off, but wanted to record it just in case -- SRE, 15 Nov 2001.
-- Found his wife's death record in Spandau, which was exactly accurate as to her age, and hoped that finding GWR's death might help me to know if the one born in 1752 in Wittenberg is the same person as ours in Berlin. Couldn't find. Checked index of St. Nikolai (evangelisch = Lutheran) parish, Spandau, checked also parish line by line, 1792-1802. Also checked St. Johannis (evangelisch-reformiert = reformed) parish, Spandau same years. Found nothing. It's too bad, since it would add an imporant piece of evidence to our puzzle. These years were searched, because he had his last child in 1793 and his wife died in 1802, and by this time, she was listed as a widow. It's interesting to note that in his wife's death record, she is not listed as Friederica Sophia Elisabeth Wiesenthal, but as Dorothea Friderica Wiesenthal. Also, GWR, her husband, is listed as Ernst Redel. In the death index, he is listed with his family, and his name as Gottfried Wilhelm Redel, with Ernst penciled in just above. Dorothea Friderica (a.k.a. Friederica Sophia Elisabeth) is definitely his wife, though. This type of thing makes me think all the more that our GWR b. 1752 in Wittenberg could be the right person - SRE, 26 Apr 2002.
-- MERGED MY GOTTFRIED WILHELM REDEL (B. CA. 1754) Bap: 14 Sep 1996 PROVO, End 13 Dec 1996 PROVO, WITH THE ONE FOUND IN WITTENBERG (B. 5 May 1752).
-- Letter to Spandau city library I wrote to try to find out if there are Bürgerbücher after mid 1700's:"Shon R. Edwards, A.G., M.A.
21973 N. 69th Ave.
Glendale, AZ 85310
U.S.A.
sre-genealogy@juno.comden 27. April 2002
Stadtbibliothek Spandau
Carl-Schurz-Str. 13
13597 Berlin
DEUTSCHLANDSehr geehrter Herr oder geehrte Dame,
Ich suche Informationen über zwei Männer, die aus Spandau stammen. Der erste heißt Gottfried Wilhelm Redel. Er wäre wahrscheinlich in einem Bürgerbuch gewesen (ich habe in den Kirchenbüchern schon geforscht), und ich frage mich, ob Sie ein Bürgerbuch für Spandau haben. Es gibt Bürgerbücher für Spandau früher als 1734 (Der Spandauer Bürgerbuch von 1600 bis 1734 und die Spandauer Neubürgerliste von 1579 bis 1596 und Bürger- und Einwohnerkataster der Stadt Spandau von 1723), aber sie sind zu früh für mich. Ich brauche ein späteres Bürgerbuch, oder eine andere Quelle, die mir in dieser Zeit den Namen seines Vaters geben würde. Er war in 1752 geboren (deshalb wäre er im Bürgerbuch ca. 1775-1800 gewesen), war “Peruquenmacher” und seine Religion war evangelisch.
Ich suche auch den Vater seiner Frau, evangelisch, auch “Peruquenmacher”, Ernst August WIESENTHAL, geb. ca. 1725. Hoffentlich erscheint er auch im Bürgerbuch ca. 1750-1775. Ich suche seinen Geburtsort u. -datum, sowie den Namen seines Vaters.
Haben Sie so ein Bürgerbuch, oder wissen Sie ob eines überhaupt existiert? Wenn nicht, könnten Sie vielleicht diesen Brief an jemanden geben, der/die mir helfen könnte, z.B.jemandem vom Stadtarchiv Spandau?
Bitte schicken Sie mir einen vollständigen Auszug aus den Bürgerbüchern für diese Personen. Ich möchte auch Fotokopien von Ihren Urkunden erhalten, wenn das möglich ist. Ich lege zwei Coupons bei, die Sie auf Ihrem Postamt gegen Luftpostmarken eintauschen können. Bitte sagen Sie mir, was ich für Ihre Dienstleistung zu bezahlen habe. Ich danke Ihnen im voraus sehr viel für Ihre Hilfe.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Shon R. Edwards, A.G., M.A."
Reply by e-mail received from C. Clemens, Stadtbibliothek Spandau, c.clemens.bibliothek@ba-spd.verwalt-berlin.de on 22 May 2002:
"An Herrn Shon R. Edwards, A.G., M.A.
Sehr geehrter Herr Edwards,
für Ihren Brief vom 27.4., in dem Sie um Informationen aus Bürgerbüchern
bitten, danken wir. Wir haben den Brief an unser Stadtarchiv
weitergeleitet und hoffen, dass Sie dort die gewünschten Auskünfte
erhalten.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Clemens, Leiterin der Stadtbibliothek Spandau"And finally a response from the Archiv des Stadtgeschichtlichen Museums Spandau, Am Luliusturm, 13599 Berlin, Germany:
"Herrn Shon R. Edwards, A.G., M.A.
21973 N. 69th Ave.
Glendale, AZ 85310
U.S.A.4.7.2002
Dutchwahl 354944ß287, Fax 354944ß296
Sehr geehrter Herr Edwards,
Ihre Anfrage vom 27.4.2002 wurde von der Stadtbibliothek an uns weitergeleitet.
Wir können Ihnen bie Ihren Forschungen leider nur bedings weiterzuhelfen, da die Quellenlage sehr schwiereg ist. Es gibt nämlich kein späteres Bürgerbuch als die beiden Editionen des Bürgerbuches bis 1734 und des Bürgerkatasters von 1723. Die Bürgeraufnahmen nach 1734 sind sonst nur noch in den Kämmerreirechnungen enthalten, die aber nicht lückenlos überliefert sind. Außerdem werden bei der Bürgeraufnahme nicht die Daten angegeben, die Sie erwarten, sondern nur der Name des neuen Bürgers, das Datum der Bürgeraufnahme, der Beruf des neuen Bürgers und die Hühe des bezahlten Bürgergeldes. Wir haben die Kämmerreirechnungen von 1749/50 bis 1775/56 durchgesehen, aber den von Ihnen gesuchten Perückenmacher Ernst August Wiesenthal nicht finden können. In der Kämmerreirechnung von 1755/56 ist allerdings ein abgedankter Soldat names Ernst Heinrich Wiesenthal aufgefürhrt, der am 3. Januar 1756 das Bürgerrecht erwarb und dafür vier Groschen zahlte. Weitere Angeben werden zu ihm, wie gesagt, nicht gemacht. Wenn Sie diese Spur weiterverfolgen wollen, müssten Sie zunächts das betreffende Regement sowie dan das zugehörige Garnisonkirchenbuch ermitteln.
Die Suche nach Gottfried Wilhelm Redel in den Kämmereirechnungen von 1749/50 bis 1802/03, die fast vollständig überliefert sind, blieb leider ebenfalls ergebnislos. Überhaupt war unter den neuen Bürgern nur ein Perückenmacher anderen Names zu finden (1800/01). Das bedeutet, dass in Spandau wohl schlechte Voraussetzungen für die Niederlassung einses Angehöregen dieses Gewerbes bestanden. Die von Ihnen Gesuchten Personen müssen nicht unbedingt in Spandau das Bürgerrecht erworben haben, auch wenn sie dort geboren wurden. Möglicherweise kommt auch Berlin oder ein anderer Ort in Frage.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Im Auftrag
Pohl
(Dr. Joachim Pohl)"This letter basically says that there are no actual Bürgerbücher after 1734. They are in the Kämmerreirechnungen (financial records) after that point. (The original Bürgerbücher were destroyed in WWII, and the two they mention that I have also seen, are copies. If later books existed, they were probably destoyed, too), but there are holes in these records. They checked 1749/50 to 1775/56 [sic? 76], but didn't find Ernst August Wiesenthal. But in 1755/56, a former solder by the name of Ernst Heinrich Wiesenthal is entered, who got citizenship 3 Jan 1756 and paid 4 pennies for it. No further references are made to him. If we wanted to follow this clue, we would have to find his regiment and the Garrison church book associated with it. Also, a search was done in the Kämmereirechnungen from 1749/50 to 1802/03 for Gottfried Wilhelm Redel, which have been preserved almost in totality, but which didn't give a clue either. There was only a wigmaker by another name in 1800/01. Also, in these financial records, the name of the father is not given, as it was in the citizenship books. The conclusion was that these people must have received their citizenship elsewhere, such as Berlin, or other place
N.B. - I have checked Berlin citizenship books - nothing. Also a researcher in Germany, Heidrun Linke did the same and didn't find anything -- SRE, 20 Jul 2002.-- Check Copenhagen wills indexes, to see if he came there with his child/children. This might give further clues about his origin -- SRE, 27 Jul 2002.
-- Checked "Register to Copenhagens porbate records" with subject heading of "Denmark, København, København - Probate records - indexes." This is not an index per se, but just a guide to finding the records. It may be worth checking some day, though it is very lengthy, and it would be hard to determine which ones ancestors would have been in -- SRE, 30 Jul 2002.
-- Checked 1801 census index to Copenhagen and didn't find any occurrences of our Bolvig family or of Helene's husband, Henrich Ludwig Redel. There was a Helene Bolvig 4 years old only. There were some Redel families (under various spellings, e.g., Rihdel, Ridel, Redel, Rydahl, Rødohl, Rødel, Riedel, etc.), especially in Sankt Anna Vester Quarter, as well as Øster Quarter, but didn't appear to be related -- SRE, 30 Jul 2002.
Friederica Sophia Elisabeth WIESENTHAL
B Correspondence with Evangelisches Zentralarchiv in Berlin, Kirchenbuchstelle, Jebensstrasse 3, 10623 Berlin, Germany, phone 49-30-3-10-10-0, dated 25 Jun 1996. Tauf-index for Skt. Nikolai, Spandau, Brandenburg, Prussia, FHL 1,271,061, entry 5:429. Also births, FHL 1,270,683.
!M Skt. Nikolai, Spandau, Brandenburg, Preussen, Germany parish records, FHL 1,271,066, p. 410, index, vol. 3, pg. 44.NOTES/LOG:
-- Looked on FHL 1,270,616, Taufindex for Jerusalem parish, Berlin, Brandenburg, Preussen, Germany. No Wiesenthal's whatsoever in this time period.
B Skt. Nikolai, Spandau parish records (index), FHL 1,271,060 (right side), p. 549, and (actual record) 1,270,687 (right side), p. 125.
!B Skt. Nikolai, Spandau parish records (index), FHL 1,271,060 (right side), p. 549, and (actual record) 1,270,687 (right side), p. 125.
B Skt. Nikolai, Spandau parish records (index), FHL 1,271,060 (right side), p. 549, and (actual record) 1,270,687 (right side), p. 217.
B Skt. Nikolai, Spandau parish records (index), FHL 1,271,060 (right side), p. 549, and (actual record) 1,270,687 (right side), p. 319.
D Skt. Nikolai, Spandau, Brandenburg, Prussia, par. rec. FHL 1,271,050, p. 380.
B Skt. Nikolai, Spandau parish records (index), FHL 1,271,060 (right side), p. 549, and (actual record) 1,270,688 (left side), p. 611.
D Skt. Nikolai, Spandau, Brandenburg, Prussia, par. rec. FHL 1,271,050, p. 458.
B Skt. Nikolai, Spandau parish records (index), FHL 1,271,060 (right side), p. 549, and (actual record) 1,270,688 (left side), p. 715.